Posts by Teary Oberon

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

Teary Oberon

and just looking at this from a common-sense point of view, anyone who has been a JW knows that the elders will do whatever those higher up in the chain of command tell them to do

I believe that Elders and Ministerial Servants are considered employees of Watchtower by Law, so this isn't really something that is questioned.

A reasonable conclusion (and I think the one that was arrived at in this case) is that this process was in place to attempt to protect the organization from bad publicity and legal liability, with any concern for protecting children a distant afterthought

A conclusion is not reasonable when there is no support for it. The most we could hope to reasonably support is the liability claim, but everything else is merely assumption and speculation based on no evidence. I would not say that they intended to protect children, but I would also not say that they didn't intend to protect children. I simply can't read minds or personal intentions.

there are numerous anecdotal accounts

What is 0 x 100? Still 0. Anecdotal accounts are not to be used when making general conclusions. Their value is next to nothing. But what we do know for a fact is that at least in this case, nobody was discouraged from reporting to police; and indeed, the parents of the first teenager did report to police after meeting with the elders, though they never told anybody about it. And if memory serves correct, the Boer case had similar accusations of Elders warning not to report to police, but the appeals judge threw those claims out and sided with Watchtower.

These analogies don't exactly hold up because they deal with affirmatively causing harm

You acknowledge that your examples are irrelevant to the case at hand yet you go with them anyways. That is no bueno. Intentional causing of confusion in the mind of the lay reader. The more relevant Principle of Law (that you yourself even hint at) is:

There exists no general duty to protect others from harm, absent a clear special relationship.

"There does not exist a general obligation to protect others from harm not created by the actor. The fact that the actor realizes or should realize that action on his part is necessary for another's aid or protection does not of itself impose upon him a duty to take such action. In other words, the mere fact that one individual knows that a third party is or could be dangerous to others does not make that individual responsible for controlling the third party or protecting others from the danger. The creation of an amorphous common law duty on the part of a church or other voluntary organization requiring it to protect its members from each other would give rise to both unlimited liability and liability out of all proportion to culpability."

I myself haven't been a Witness for years, and I still find the Conti ruling terrifying, as should you, being a Man of Law yourself.

67

Child with brain tumour taken from UK hospital by JW parents

by Fe2O3Girl in

jw
friends

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28978655.

a five-year-old boy with a brain tumour has been taken without consent from hospital by his parents, sparking a major police hunt for the family.. ashya king was taken from southampton general hospital and is now believed to be in france with his parents and six siblings.. police said he needs constant medical care and there are "serious concerns" for his life if he is not found today.. brett king, 51, and naghemeh king, 45 removed him from the ward on thursday.. ashya's father was pictured taking him from the hospital"everyone is sending their love now.

we love you so much and we want to see you very soon and i love you so much and can't wait to see you.".

Teary Oberon

Correct me if I am wrong, but to me it seems that the major catalyst behind all of this was the original doctor making direct threats against the parents like some kind of common thug.

The parents were terrified of the prescribed after-treatment, and with good reason. The hospital wanted to pelt the boy with radiation that could very well have destroyed the rest of his brain and turned him into a permanent vegetable. What parent wouldn't be hesitant?

But when the parents say "Hey, we don't want to go this route. Let us try this instead," and the doctor replies "No, your son WILL get this treatment and you will go along with it or else I will get the court to take away your custody," what are they really supposed to do as parents?

The boy is on death's door anyways and his future standard of living looks grim no matter what. Ethically you allow the parents to try the alternatives that they want. But the doctor was stubborn, and because of his stubbornness he spooked the parents and caused them to flee (justifiably so I'd say).

I also want to point out that the parents did not sneak the boy out of the facility. They took him on a pre-scheduled outing that was approved by the hospital. The hospital expected him to be back in a few hours, but the parents simply didn't come back at all.

3

Transglutaminase

by Doug Mason in

transglutaminase is often used in the formation of meats -- including expensive cuts of meat, skinless sausages, chicken, and fish -- as well as in the preparation of some dairy products such as some cheese and yoghurt, and in tofu, which vegetarians consume.. transglutaminase, also known as "meat glue" is often created from a coagulating product in the blood of pigs or cattle.

factor viii, which blood product the wts permits, is one such transglutaminase.. has the wts made any public statements regarding the widespread use of this product?

or does its permission to use sub-particles of blood cover the use of "meat glue"?.

Teary Oberon

I've read that the Transglutaminase used for meat glue is more often created through microbial batch fermentation, though it can also be extracted from blood.

It also raises the interesting question: is this substance actually bood, or is it an essential component of our concept of blood? Would blood still be blood if we were to remove this piece, as Aristotle would say.

Seeing as how this enzyme is more a microbial byproduct that can be produced entirely independently of blood and also stand as its own unique substance, I could see someone making the argument that it is not blood.

Do remember, the prohibition is on the specific act of taking blood into one's body, but not necessarily on other random uses of blood (e.g. juggling it or testing it or handling it). If a person were to separate out only the pure water content from a packet of blood, and then drink the pure water, has he violated a prohibition on taking blood into one's body, even if the water was originally derived from blood? Is water blood? The same questions can be asked of enymes like Transglutaminase.

16

Parents remove child from hospital fearing blood transfusion?

by Randomthoughts in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28978655.

Teary Oberon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ETQn9ZPwk

Latest shocking update from the father himself!

Turns out

the parents' actions had nothing to do with Witness beliefs or blood whatsoever.
the feeding tube "imminent death" line promulgated by police and media turned out to be bogus.
the parents were acting in what they felt was the best interest of the child by seeking alternate treatment from other respected medical facilities.

The parents were apparently arrested by police a short time ago, and the child was swept back up into the system. Whether the parents will ever see him again is anyone's guess.

P.S. automatically attributing malevolence to a person's actions based on little to no information, is a good way to make yourself look very foolish and bigoted. Some of the posters on this site and several others should be genuinely ashamed of the things they've said.

Also, if you wish to donate to the family's cause, the brother has a PayPal link in the description of the video:

PayPal: [email protected]

62

End shunning or lose tax free status

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

which would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?

losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.

ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.

Teary Oberon

"What people here are getting at, though, is that the WTS' ideological mandate to shun former members is...a form of coercion"

Precision of language is always important.

Trying to define the limits and degree of "coersion" in the presense of threats of physical violence is fairly simple. And we can rightly call that kind of coersion bad precisely because it includes threats of violence.

Trying to define the term in the absense of threats of physical violence is still possible but very difficult and complex and at risk to subjectivity, because you are removing a key characteristic of the term. The absense of violence also throws the moral status of the action into serious question. That is why I normally do not like speaking of "coersion" separate from violence -- it gets too confusing for both sides.

Hayek writes a good deal on the subject in Chapter 9 of his Constitution of Liberty, if you really want to learn more though.

22

Is College Worth It? Clearly, New Data Say...

by NewYork44M in

jw
friends

a new set of income statistics answers those questions quite clearly: yes, college is worth it, and its not even close.

for all the struggles that many young college graduates face, a four-year degree has probably never been more valuable.. here is the article from the new york times:.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/upshot/is-college-worth-it-clearly-new-data-say.html?hp.

Teary Oberon

Thank you for your reply NewYork44M.

I think one of the other common problems we run into is in actually defining this vague and overbroad term 'education.' A man can be staunchly anti-university and yet still be pro-education, because education is not limited to university.

Life itself is a constant state of "education." We learn things constantly all throughout our lives simply by living with and interacting with and empathizing with other human beings. I still consider my grandpa to be one of the smartest men I ever knew, and yet he never set foot inside a college or university. He gained wisdom from life.

It also depends heavily on what exacty you want to be educated "in" and why you want to be educated "in it." When we say that Witnesses are anti-education, what we really mean is that they are anti-"high intensity academic studies at the expense of spiritual study." They are not anti-'education,' they simply hold up a different form of education as the key to happiness and success. Instead of happiness through more money by means of more college degrees, they emphasize happiness through devoting time to knowing the Creator. For some people this does bring great happiness, and for some it apparently does not. I try not to judge either path -- let people do as they wish and they can judge for themselves at the end of their own lives how worth while their own choices were.

I also say, if a person has a interest or wants to learn a subject, then instead of sinking 50k-100k into a college, just go pick up a book and study in your spare time. I myself enjoy Austrian Economics and Political Philosophy, but I am not going to waste a lot of money on expensive classes and degrees. Instead, I've simply filled my bookshelf up with books and I read them and learn at my own leisure.

But that is just my couple of cents too. Take them as you will.

62

End shunning or lose tax free status

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

which would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?

losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.

ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.

Teary Oberon

"they CAN BE CHALLENGED ON THIS ISSUE"

No, they really can't, at least not without very special circumstances. Your blog link is not very reliable and has a obvious bias, but several unbiased sources give a more complete story of that same Oklahoma case:

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/03/31/churches-in-court4/

after the elders threatened to tell the congregation about her relationship, she notified the elders of her withdrawal from the church. Claiming that only they could end Guinn’s membership in the church, the elders proceeded to advise congregants that they were prohibited from contacting Guinn unless it was for the purpose of encouraging her repentance. The elders also sent announcements of her sexual activities to nearby Church of Christ congregations. Guinn filed a suit against the church in which she alleged that the church’s publication of this information caused her emotional stress and invaded her privacy.

It was not the action of excommunication or shunning that gave Guinn grounds for civil action, it was the fact that the Church spread possibly defamatory information about her. The shunning had little or nothing to do with any of it. This is clarified further:

"After Hadnot’s husband opened and read the letter [informing him of his wife's excommunication], Hadnot sued the church, alleging that the disclosure of this information to her husband, as well as to her fellow congregants during the disciplinary hearing, had caused her emotional distress.

Applying the standard enunciated in its Guinn decision, the Oklahoma Supreme Court held that the church’s disclosure of Hadnot’s affair was constitutionally protected because, unlike in the Guinn case (which involved the church releasing potentially damaging information after Marion Guinn had left the congregation), this disclosure was part of the church’s process of excommunicating Hadnot.

The rest of the Pew article goes into much more detail and is IMO a very worthwhile read for anyone interested in these things.

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

I agree with this statement; however, the key word throughout all of it is "freedom," and the sole meaning of freedom in this context is the absence of physical coersion, especially from Governments. I do not think it applies to Jehovah's Witnesses and their practice of disfellowshipping, because they do not employ violence or coersion in the process, and therefore no rights are or can be violated.

What is in fact happening, is that the Witnesses are merely exercising their own rights to freely associate or not associate with whomever they choose. Nobody has a positive right to association, i.e., nobody can force anyone else to associate with them. That in of itself would be akin to slavery.

But those are just my couple of cents. Take them as you will.

22

Is College Worth It? Clearly, New Data Say...

by NewYork44M in

jw
friends

a new set of income statistics answers those questions quite clearly: yes, college is worth it, and its not even close.

for all the struggles that many young college graduates face, a four-year degree has probably never been more valuable.. here is the article from the new york times:.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/upshot/is-college-worth-it-clearly-new-data-say.html?hp.

Teary Oberon

Is a College Degree Worth It?

Not Necessarily.

I still prefer the common sense Austrian method of analysis to the econometric approach. A good article on the subject can be found here:

http://mises.org/daily/6720/A-College-Degree-Does-Not-Make-You-a-Million-Dollars

Some of the interesting points raised:

1) The data in these studies is self-selecting. Intuitively we already know that "the more ambitious and talented go to college in greater proportion than their peers." It is not the piece of paper hanging up on the wall that makes these people successful -- it is their underlying character and motivation that makes them successful. These are the kinds of people that could start as a floor mopper at McDonalds and end up running the entire store within a few years. Everything they do they do seriously with the goal to be better than everyone else. It does not matter where these ones go, they bring success with them. It just so happens that most of them are drawn towards university today because that is the narrative that we drill into their heads from a young age: "you can't be successful unless you go to college." But that is simply not true.

Even the article's attempt to get around these truths I found unconvincing.

"Genetically identical twins raised in the same environment are likely to have very similar ability levels to start with, which enables one to isolate the effect of education."

It is not "ability" that matters, it is interests and the motivation to pursue them. Some of the most gifted and seemlingly intelligent people I knew through school ended up going nowhere in life simply because they were lazy or had no clearly defined goals or interests. And the ones we all thought were too stupid to succeed ended up clawing their way past everyone else with hard work alone.

And all of that is beside the point anyways, because even identical twins can differ radically in both raw ability and interests. How do the studies account for twins with differnent attitudes and motivations? How do they account for twins pursuing different fields with naturally different pay scales? What if one twin enjoys accounting while the other wants nothing more in life than to be a photographer? They both pursue their chosen careers, and the accountant naturally makes a lot more money. But can we really say he is more successful if they both are doing what they want to do? How are we really defining and measuring "success"?

2) The individual who forgoes college gets a 4 year head start on work experience and savings. If the non-college individual also spends those 4 years doing self-study and looking for cheaper education alternatives (such as part time tech schools, trade schools and online options), then all of a sudden that person has a huge advantage over the green horn new college grad who is dragging 100k in debt behind him and has little to no real world work experience. Perhaps that is part of the reason why such a HUGE proportion of new college grads end up either unemployed or not working in their field of study at all.

3) You also have to be careful of who exactly is being compared to who in these 'studies.' As the Mises article brings out:

"Indeed, who exactly are we comparing? We’re not only comparing Jane-Lawyer to Joe-Carpenter, but we’re also comparing financial analysts with the mentally disabled, medical doctors with welfare dependents, building engineers with drug addicts, architects with pan handlers, marketing directors with immigrants who can barely speak English, and university professors with career criminals (whose earnings, by the way, are rarely reported)."

4) The only truly good degrees are the STEM and Professional degrees. But once you venture outside of those, the average earnings for college grads plummets, far below the point of being worth the investment.

5) Alternatives to University are also always ignored or played down. Self study is far more viable now in the age of the internet than it was 100 years ago, where colleges were built up around physical libraries simply because of communication limitations. You now have online books, study courses, chat rooms, groups and associations devoted solely to your field of study, etc. There are also more and more Vocational Technology classes being offered to kids still in High School, as well as adults (I myself attended a Vo-Tech school during my Junior and Senior year in High School). There are apprenticeship programs and entrepreneurial programs galore for those who would look for them.

6) And lastly, a point I only partially touched on earlier: the often crushing and suffocating debt that comes along with long term University degrees. " Seven in 10 college seniors (71%) who graduated last year had student loan debt, with an average of $29,400 per borrower." Those figures can very easily skyrocket to 50-60-70-100k+ in debt for the longer term degrees. I've seen stories of many Law students with debts upwards of $250,000, and then they wind up stuck as a common clerk making $40,000 a year, or worse, they never find work in their field at all.

62

End shunning or lose tax free status

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

which would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?

losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.

ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.

Teary Oberon

"They shunned people for getting married and/or having kids during the Rutherford era."

That is facinating. I've been lurking around ex-JW circles for long time and I've never heard that one before. Any specific cites?

62

End shunning or lose tax free status

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

which would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the united states or europe?

losing tax free status would mean losing millions of dollars.

ending shunning means people would leave by the boatloads.

Teary Oberon

Which would the watchtower choose if it came down to this in the United States or Europe?

I might also add in answer to this question:

Even if the United States and Europe came down and made shunning outright illegal, the Witnesses would be fully justified in continuing to do it under the radar, because it would be a case of the Governments transgressing against the rights of the Witnesses. The Governments would be in the wrong, and morally speaking nobody is obligated to endure blatent violations of their rights, even if by their own Government. Civil Disobedience 101.